[sirbflean]

O.K. why do i feel like the new stu?? !!.??
i really couldnt relate how many times i have lost with bullits on pokerstars. nor could i relate how many donkeys suck out on the river, the turn, or just flop the nuts>> PERIOD. just cause you have aces is no ticket saying that you have won the hand. i also couldnt tell you how many times i have personally downed aces with small connectors..i.e.56 67 78 89. and and also made donk calls myself with A Q vs A k calling the other guys all in and getting a Q. ALL 5 CARDS COUNT. poker is not always raising on the button...
it is not always the best hand wins... it is not always position or overcards... it IS the heartbeats behind your opponents! because you statistically have the best hand going in to a hand does not equate that you will have the best coming out. i could say that i have lost many hands that looked really good pre flop, but i also must say that i have won many hands with rags. either through betting or intimidation. poker is not all about the cards. its the cards that you can convince your opponent that you hold. complete hands( i.e. hands that use all 5 cards like str8's or flushes, boats etc. only appear rigged! THEY HAPPEN. dont kid yourself there is a rank of hands for a reason. i have posted hand histories earlier as some users asked for. I HAVE been beaten with the nut str8 on the turn by the full boat on the river..THAT IS POKER..... i reitterate my earlier plea...DO NOT PLAY FOR REAL MONEY ONLINE. you will generate nothing but questions as to your losses. it is not any sites responsibility to ensure a winning % but your own prudence that makes a win or a loss. stop kidding yourself and welcome to poker!

[enter_issues]

Of course poker isn't all about the cards and a lot of psychology, but being a student as well as many other people who don't begin with a $100,000 bankroll have to start small. That means you're up against numerous amounts of donkies who will call anything with anything, so it virtually boils down to luck. Of course even with a statistical 95% chance of winning the hand, it's only statistic and the other player can win the hand with a lucky hit on the river. But if this happens over and over and over again, you can't say there isn't something up and it only "appears" rigged. It's like flipping a coin over and over again, and continuously getting heads. It's of course possible, but over long periods of time, you can't keep on flipping heads.

Players with more experience understand more about the psychology of poker, but less experienced players ignore what they think you have and call anything. In the long run, of course, that strategy is detrimental, but I've seen good players get beat bad over and over again- not just once or twice.

Of course once in a while I get lucky and hit the river against 20:1 odds, but I recall many instances where players win with runner-runner cards on the turn and river. It's like throwing a 1000-sided die and landing on the same side over and over again - it can happen once or twice, but gosh multiple times is just so highly unlickly, much like playing poker with a human dealer.

[stu_ungar]

Originally Posted by sirbflean

here are the kinds of bad beats that pokerstars doles out on a regular basis

PokerStars Game #9969061915: Hold'em No Limit (100/200) - 2007/05/17 - 21:35:33 (ET)
Table 'Bellona V' 9-max (Play Money) Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: topsgt (8400 in chips)
Seat 2: Stever23 (5205 in chips)
Seat 3: stompersgir (7900 in chips)
Seat 4: befrank1 (15880 in chips)
Seat 5: SonOfABluff (13531 in chips)
Seat 6: peifryguy (42640 in chips)
Seat 7: Berrigan_2 (33475 in chips)
Seat 8: Nextall (11600 in chips)
Seat 9: nova109 (27600 in chips)
Berrigan_2: posts small blind 100
Nextall: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Berrigan_2 [Jd Kh]
stompersgir said, "no wayyyy"
befrank1 said, "won,t stop talking about it"
stompersgir said, "no $$$$ involved"
nova109: calls 200
topsgt: calls 200
Stever23: calls 200
stompersgir: calls 200
befrank1: calls 200
SonOfABluff: raises 1000 to 1200----------This raise is indicating a big enough hand for you to fold your mediocre hand
stompersgir said, "why should he fight free"
peifryguy: calls 1200
stompersgir said, "get injured again"
Berrigan_2: calls 1100---------- Mistake 1 calling the raise with a possible dominated hand
stompersgir said, "black guy?"
Nextall: raises 1000 to 2200---------- A re-raise which shows they have at least a pp or AQ or better
befrank1 said, "not a pro fight"
befrank1 said, "yes"
nova109: calls 2000
topsgt: folds
stompersgir said, "ok"
Stever23: folds
stompersgir: folds
befrank1: folds
SonOfABluff: calls 1000
peifryguy: calls 1000
stompersgir said, "when is it?"
Berrigan_2: calls 1000----------Calling the re-raise with junk that deserves to be beaten
*** FLOP *** [6d Ts Qh]
topsgt leaves the table
Berrigan_2: checks
Nextall: bets 1000
befrank1 said, "no date late this year dec prob"
nova109: calls 1000
SonOfABluff: calls 1000
stompersgir said, "ic"
peifryguy: raises 4200 to 5200
Berrigan_2: calls 5200--------- You have nothing but a draw and K high so this should not be a calling situation
Nextall: calls 4200
nova109: calls 4200
SonOfABluff: folds
*** TURN *** [6d Ts Qh] [Ah]
stompersgir said, "how is ur guy doing now...better?"
Berrigan_2: checks ----------Slow playing when there is a flush draw is a bad play. If everyone checked and someone hit their flush your in very hot water
Nextall: bets 4200 and is all-in
nova109: calls 4200
peifryguy: raises 4200 to 8400
Berrigan_2: raises 17675 to 26075 and is all-in
nova109: calls 16000 and is all-in
stompersgir said, "since he got out of hospital"
peifryguy: calls 17675
*** RIVER *** [6d Ts Qh Ah] [Ac]---------- You got what you deserved
befrank1 said, "hey if dog fights again you won,t have to get him a xmas gift he will sleep through the holidays"
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Berrigan_2: shows [Jd Kh] (a straight, Ten to Ace)
peifryguy: shows [Td Tc] (a full house, Tens full of Aces)
peifryguy collected 11750 from side pot-2
nova109: mucks hand
jebo18 joins the table at seat #1
peifryguy collected 48000 from side pot-1
Nextall: shows [Ad As] (four of a kind, Aces)
Nextall collected 50400 from main pot
stompersgir said, "ur funny frank"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 110150 Main pot 50400. Side pot-1 48000. Side pot-2 11750. | Rake 0
Board [6d Ts Qh Ah Ac]
Seat 1: topsgt folded before Flop
Seat 2: Stever23 folded before Flop
Seat 3: stompersgir folded before Flop
Seat 4: befrank1 folded before Flop
Seat 5: SonOfABluff folded on the Flop
Seat 6: peifryguy (button) showed [Td Tc] and won (59750) with a full house, Tens full of Aces
Seat 7: Berrigan_2 (small blind) showed [Jd Kh] and lost with a straight, Ten to Ace
Seat 8: Nextall (big blind) showed [Ad As] and won (50400) with four of a kind, Aces
Seat 9: nova109 mucked [9s 8c]

I think you played the hand badly and when that happens you deserve to get a bad beat so sorry but that is no evidence to show pokerstars is rigged but evidence to show your mistakes.

[stu_ungar]

Good idea. Lets see some Hand Histories and see what really happened. I have had AA cracked by AQ when my opponent hit runner runner queens on the turn and river. Then I got another beat where KK got beat by KJ. Its not because pokerstars is rigged but because poker has luck involved. Poker is 60% skill and 40% luck. Ask the pro's how much they have lost to bad beats and ask them if they think online poker is rigged. Lets see what they say.

[enter_issues]

Bad beats happen all the time in poker, but there are unusual spells of outrageous back-to-back bad beats I've observed, especially in tournament play. I should've gathered hand histories in the past since I play low-stakes cash games for fun instead of SNG's and such. Everyone suffers a bad beat once in a while of course, but if it's simultaneous bad beats that happen over and over again in a very short time period, then that would render me suspicious.

In tournament play, there is a bit more luck involved where there are situations where you have to win more than your fair share of coin-flip battles. However as I was gathering FPPs to reach my initial deposit bonus, not only did I lost a huge number of coinflips, I lost countless 20:1 odds where a donkey calls whatever I bet, and right when I go all-in, I get beat on the river. Yes, this can happen due to bad luck, but out of about 30 situations where this occured, I lost 95% of them with 90% or more favored odds in each hand. It wasn't like I could get whoever in the hand to fold, since no matter how much I bet, there was always someone who calls and calls. Playing poker in real life, I see bad beats happen once in a while, and I win a few hands from bad beats, but in pokerstars, they happen way too often for it to be simply luck.

As I said before, after getting my bonus, things were normal again. The purpose of rigging hands against such players would have then deposit over and over agian to reach their bonus and for the company to receive more rake.

Sounds farfetched, but after hearing some of my friends as well as strangers telling me the same thing, I learnt I wasn't alone.

[HaTeMeNoW]

Pokerstars is not rigged. period.

[enter_issues]

Today, I had a lot of all-in preflop opportunities, all of them great favorites but ended up terribly. Here are just a few of them:


PokerStars Game #10319124046: Tournament #52284799, $3.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) - 2007/06/07 - 15:57:53 (ET)
Table '52284799 1' 10-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: ßMan (1430 in chips)
Seat 4: Wraitor (2225 in chips)
Seat 6: CobolMan9 (3080 in chips)
Seat 7: bigredone999 (4590 in chips)
Seat 9: mozzelman (3675 in chips)
mozzelman: posts small blind 100
ßMan: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ßMan [Ad Ah]
Wraitor: folds
CobolMan9: folds
bigredone999: raises 400 to 600
mozzelman: folds
ßMan: raises 830 to 1430 and is all-in
bigredone999: calls 830
*** FLOP *** [6s Kh 8d]
*** TURN *** [6s Kh 8d] [Qh]
*** RIVER *** [6s Kh 8d Qh] [Ks]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
ßMan: shows [Ad Ah] (two pair, Aces and Kings)
bigredone999: shows [Kd As] (three of a kind, Kings)
bigredone999 collected 2960 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2960 | Rake 0
Board [6s Kh 8d Qh Ks]
Seat 1: ßMan (big blind) showed [Ad Ah] and lost with two pair, Aces and Kings
Seat 4: Wraitor folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: CobolMan9 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: bigredone999 (button) showed [Kd As] and won (2960) with three of a kind, Kings
Seat 9: mozzelman (small blind) folded before Flop

PokerStars Game #10295910401: Tournament #52171566, $3.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2007/06/06 - 02:14:09 (ET)
Table '52171566 1' 10-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: Mr_McPots (1500 in chips)
Seat 2: cosanostra2 (1460 in chips)
Seat 3: mike680 (1480 in chips)
Seat 4: MR.GREEN34 (1500 in chips)
Seat 5: ßMan (1500 in chips)
Seat 6: justwills (1460 in chips)
Seat 7: mdBlaze (3140 in chips)
Seat 9: sphinx696 (1500 in chips)
Seat 10: Ladewig222 (1460 in chips)
mike680: posts small blind 10
MR.GREEN34: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ßMan [Ac Ah]
ßMan: raises 60 to 80
justwills: calls 80
mdBlaze: folds
sphinx696: folds
Ladewig222: folds
Mr_McPots: folds
cosanostra2: folds
mike680: calls 70
MR.GREEN34: folds
*** FLOP *** [2s 5d 2c]
mike680: checks
ßMan: bets 200
justwills: folds
mike680: raises 360 to 560
ßMan: raises 860 to 1420 and is all-in
mike680: calls 840 and is all-in
*** TURN *** [2s 5d 2c] [5h]
*** RIVER *** [2s 5d 2c 5h] [4c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
mike680: shows [6h 2h] (a full house, Deuces full of Fives)
ßMan: shows [Ac Ah] (two pair, Aces and Fives)
mike680 collected 3060 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3060 | Rake 0
Board [2s 5d 2c 5h 4c]
Seat 1: Mr_McPots folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: cosanostra2 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: mike680 (small blind) showed [6h 2h] and won (3060) with a full house, Deuces full of Fives
Seat 4: MR.GREEN34 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: ßMan showed [Ac Ah] and lost with two pair, Aces and Fives
Seat 6: justwills folded on the Flop
Seat 7: mdBlaze folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: sphinx696 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 10: Ladewig222 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

PokerStars Game #10326162418: Tournament #51838064, $2.00+$0.20 Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2007/06/07 - 23:35:11 (ET)
Table '51838064 13' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: tony0205 (13120 in chips)
Seat 2: cafeturk (930 in chips)
Seat 3: ßMan (2760 in chips)
Seat 4: crusty me (2585 in chips)
Seat 5: Nasereth (380 in chips)
Seat 6: maestro101 (1650 in chips)
Seat 7: colon cowboy (1445 in chips)
Seat 8: red4u (2115 in chips)
Seat 9: boodah58 (3270 in chips)
red4u: posts small blind 25
boodah58: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ßMan [Ad Ac]
tony0205: folds
cafeturk: folds
ßMan: raises 150 to 200
crusty me: folds
Nasereth is disconnected
Nasereth is connected
Nasereth: folds
maestro101: folds
colon cowboy: raises 150 to 350
red4u: folds
boodah58: folds
ßMan: raises 1095 to 1445
colon cowboy: calls 1095 and is all-in
*** FLOP *** [Kd 4d Tc]
*** TURN *** [Kd 4d Tc] [9h]
*** RIVER *** [Kd 4d Tc 9h] [Js]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
ßMan: shows [Ad Ac] (a pair of Aces)
colon cowboy: shows [Kc Ts] (two pair, Kings and Tens)
colon cowboy collected 2965 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2965 | Rake 0
Board [Kd 4d Tc 9h Js]
Seat 1: tony0205 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: cafeturk folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: ßMan showed [Ad Ac] and lost with a pair of Aces
Seat 4: crusty me folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Nasereth folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: maestro101 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: colon cowboy (button) showed [Kc Ts] and won (2965) with two pair, Kings and Tens
Seat 8: red4u (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: boodah58 (big blind) folded before Flop

Yes, Aces to get cracked, but 3 times in 1 day is quite enough. The one where I didn't go all in pre-flop, I raised enough from under the gun so that someone with 6,2 won't call. Well, he did and flopped trip 2's. Don't say I didn't raise enough pre-flop. Generally, you'd want someone to call you when you have rockets, then slam them down on the flop. There is a low enough chance they'll hit something better than a pair of aces on the flop anyways so you don't gain a measly pot pre-flop with everyone folding.

These are just some today. I was playing for fun blowing away my money gathering more and more bad beats. (Oh, and don't say looking for bad beats will get you beat. That's just superstition). I might begin to fold pocket aces pre-flop now heh.

I'll be back to play another SNG tournament, and post another example of exceedingly favored hands getting slaughtered by mediocre calls =). I can't cash out anyways, so I'll have to finish the remainder of my bankroll then uninstall.

[Schly]

Originally Posted by jrlarson

I joined Poker Stars in November. I am a reasonably good, conservative player. I played the one table 3$ progressive table and took my initial $50 investment to $280 in 2.5 months.

Then the cards began to change dramatically on all in showdowns for me. In the last four weeks I have dropped straight down from $280 to $180, and nothing has changed but the odds defying outcomes of showdowns where the pre-flop odds were all in my favor. I started keeping track about 2.5 weeks ago on all-ins when I knew that something was going on. The odds defying results are 11 against me and 1 for me as follows (remember these were all in's pre-flop:

11 LOSSES:
kk to 44 (4)
AsKs to k4 (kk4)
a6 to kq (k)
kk to tt (jq98)
ak to a5 (5)
jj to at (a)
(all in after flop) 8j (8j) to 97 (turn river = 56) that one was beyond funny
(all in after flop) qj (q high flop) to ad8 (two diamonds turn & river to save him)
aQ to kq (k)
AJ (tka8) to Q3 (j)
A6 to 85 (8)

1 WIN:
A4 to QQ (AA4) (I guess giving me one big improbable was supposed to make me feel better about the other 11, right?

The Poker Starssite is a joke. They must be leveling out good players to ensure that bad players get some victories and hang around their site.

And look at the stats of the people that are sucking out like that. I guarantee that 90% of them have less than 300 tourney games under their belt (at least that's what I play and check). It's the newbs that have a huge weighted advantage. And it DOES help to stop playing at PS for a week or so.

[enter_issues]

Originally Posted by Schly

And it DOES help to stop playing at PS for a week or so.

I can't stress how true that is... After my 3 month suckout session, I gave PS a break and kept to real games. After a few weeks, I decided to give things another shot, and lo and behold things were normal. I actually won with good plays, lost with bad plays, and only had 1 or 2 bad beats over many many games as well has having my share of sucking out on someone. That is poker. Getting sucked out 80% of the time over many games when you have a 20:1 advantage going all-in is not. I don't care if you say "oh, you only played 500 games, that's doesn't justify any of your statistics". How bout you try rolling a 20 sided die and land on the same one side 400 of the 500 times. Unless the die is rigged, it is highly unlikely. Possible, but highly unlikely.

[Jappe1202]

I think you all had bad luck it is not the cards you get but how you play them