[Josem]

G'day,

I operate the website dedicated to exposing how Absolute Poker cheats (google that for the url - I don't want to spam the forum). I was linked to this discussion by a visitor to my site.

I want to be very clear that I believe there is NO credible evidence that PokerStars or any other major online poker operator operates an unfair game.

I am very confident that the current scandal is limited to Absolute. I continue to play online poker personally, primarily at PartyPoker, PokerStars and InterPoker because I am confident that they operate fair games.


By contrast to the rubbish in this thread, my accusations are based upon publicly available evidence - you can see the stuff for yourself.

I'm not likely to continue reading this thread, so if you'd like to discuss this further, please feel free to email me at michael@michaeljosem.com

[lowprices]

Is it so hard to believe that Pokerstars, and maybe other sites, have people playing under usernames in their tourneys and cash games, receiving information about hands and which ones to play or drop? That would certainly explain the stories of players with seemingly unbeatable hands being called by players with nothing, only to get beat by the river. That's one way Pokerstars could make money off of rigging their games, by literally taking it away from their players. There's just too much unknown information to call Pokerstars legit.

[Josem]

Option 1:
There is a massive international criminal conspiracy dedicated to cheating players who play at PokerStars.

No evidence exists for this conspiracy, nor is there any credible explanation of how it happens, nor is there any credible reason to even suggest such a conspiracy.

Option 2:
Some people don't understand luck, probability or poker.



Option 2 is infinitely more likely. If people want to claim that Option 1 is true, they should provide some evidence of it. Otherwise, they just look like bloody idiots.

[xp8bg]

I haven't played on FullTilt, but there software looks exactly like PS, just different suit. So Josem, what will you say about FullTilt? And one more question to you - you said you trust InterPoker, then you must also trust CaribbeanSun, PokerPlex, PlayboyGaming, WilliamHill and ClassicPoker, because they are from the same network - CryptoLogic - right?

[Josem]

Originally Posted by xp8bg

I haven't played on FullTilt, but there software looks exactly like PS, just different suit. So Josem, what will you say about FullTilt?

I say this about all sites: If you claim that online poker is rigged - at any site - show me the proof.

I have done this for Absolute Poker. I have showed the proof. Anyone can read through it and see for themselves and make their own mind up.

As a general rule in life, I don't believe things when there is no reason to believe it. This applies to online poker, this applies to my disbelief in flying reindeer, and it applies to everything else.

And one more question to you - you said you trust InterPoker, then you must also trust CaribbeanSun, PokerPlex, PlayboyGaming, WilliamHill and ClassicPoker, because they are from the same network - CryptoLogic - right?

I'm not familiar with those other names, but I do have an account at InterPoker and I have faith in their games.

If someone provided some evidence that something dodgy was happening, I'd be likely to reconsider my situation. But in the mean time - when there IS NO CREDIBLE EVIDENCE OF CHEATING - I decline to believe that there is widespread cheating happening.

[xp8bg]

Originally Posted by Josem

But in the mean time - when there IS NO CREDIBLE EVIDENCE OF CHEATING - I decline to believe that there is widespread cheating happening.

Josem there won't be any evidence, because:

You aren't allowed to see their program code. Of course this is not our right, it's not some open source project, it's a serious gambling software and know one except their programmers should see this code. Fine. But the other thing - the Hand History - you can't see the hands from the other opponents (these that were folded). If there was some script that after the tournament has finished for example, the Hand History is updated with the "folded hands" everyone will trust them, because the odds can be calculated right and if something suspicious appears there can be provided this EVIDENCE OF CHEATING you speak of. Until then all the online poker networks will be full of customers who won't see/won't will to see any cheating at all.

But the time will show - is online poker one big joke or not, be sure of that.

[Josem]

Originally Posted by xp8bg

Josem there won't be any evidence,

This is clearly false.

There were claims of cheating at Absolute Poker, and the hand history files proved the cheating (even before the more extensive HHs accidentally distributed by AP).

But the other thing - the Hand History - you can't see the hands from the other opponents (these that were folded).

But you don't need this information.

The long run statistics (even 500 hands was enough to prove the cheating at AP) is sufficient.

But the time will show - is online poker one big joke or not, be sure of that.

Correct.

[xp8bg]

Originally Posted by Josem

But you don't need this information.

The long run statistics (even 500 hands was enough to prove the cheating at AP) is sufficient.

You need it, I'll explain you why. Let's suppose you got AJ, three ppl playin, someone with A6. Flop comes A T 9. You make pot bet, this with A6 call, other two fold. Turn is some blank - 3 for example. You bet the pot again and the guy with 6 kicker tells himself - "Hmm... He played tight until now, maybe he got better kicker, I'll fold this time". So he folds... You don't know know his hand - if he was straight drawing on flop or Tx or lower kicker. Why this matters? Because if 2 players has Aces and they call to see flop, you can calculate the EXACT chance to see another Ace on the flop (when you know the folded hands of the opponents). And if you had the HH with the "folded hands" you can calculate this chance from 1000 deals where both players has a same card and see if there is something rigged, if the chance to come such card on the flop is normal (random) or is the software made so, that this card appears, so both players say - "This hand is mine" and place bets. This is just an example, you can make whatever calculations you like, when you know the cards that were dealt.

The work of the gaming commissions that promote fairplay etc. is this - to them are given 50k HHs with the "folded hands" and these commissions approve it or not, and this is based on simple odds calculations. But the thing is - do you trust ANY gaming commission? Of course NO, why - because anyone can make some gaming commission and get the stupid license to approve gaming softwares. And even if the gaming commission is FAIR, let's suppose it's 100% FAIR, it's the Bill Gates' gaming commission, this guy really don't want any more money, so he makes 100% FAIR gaming commission. The gaming commission then tells the poker network - "Hey you want to be approved by us, by the 100% FAIR gaming commission?" - "Yes we do." - "Then give us some HH's." - "Sure, here they are - 50000 HH's. We hope to get approved ::kind smile::" And it happens - they really get approved by the 100% FAIR gaming commission. Why? Because there was nothing rigged in these 50k HH's they gave them. You getting my point now? Until every player can see for himself, what cards has been dealt to others in the HH's, until then - no one can provide evidence, because there is NO evidence, NO evidence is existing.

The thing is - until WE, the poker players, the guys that play this game online, until we didn't demand FAIR, we won't get it.

[Josem]

I think that you don't realise that the currently used hand histories (which do not show the hands of other players that do not go down to showdown) were used to reveal the cheating at Absolute Poker.

You claim that it is not possible to determine cheating using such hand histories; I disagree with you. I point you to the circumstances where such cheating was uncovered using such methods.

[xp8bg]

Josem, I'm not saying it's impossible, don't get me wrong. If I pay to some programmers to make a poker software that is too rigged, obviously rigged, then you'll don't need the complete HH to expose me, right? But if it's programmed smart, you won't be able to do it only with the regular HH.