[hcow33]

I was just having a stupid discussion with a friend, about whether or not something was a bad beat. The exact details of the hand are not important. So I started wondering what other people thought. How big of a favorite must you be in a hand which you eventually lose to have it considered a "bad beat" instead of just a "beat"?

In the hand that was discussed, the primary action took place after the flop, but the odds were almost the same pre-flop and post-flop. Because most of the action happened after the flop, I am relating the poll to the odds of winning post-flop (before the turn and river).

For simplicity's sake, assume that the favorite played it fine, that the underdog wasn't given free cards or anything like that.

[sunnypoker]

this is what i wrote in this forum a looong time ago, i'll just copy and paste:
----------------------------------------------------------

Bad beat is a term overused quite often

in general, a bad beat should be, like the posts above mentions, when you are a favourite of 90% or more and u happen to lose, that sums down to about 2~3 outs with the turn/river to come. or requiring runner runnners etc.

another thing i think that should be taken into account is that bad beat is a word that should only be used when you actually outplayed someone and was a huge favourite but lost.

eg. preflop hands getting cracked shouldn't count as bad beat. Aces getting cracked by whatever hand hitting flush, i don't consider bad beat (ok, maybe a little bit, but that's just an ugly way to lose).

anyways, i've seen one of the recent 2005 WSOP main event episodes, some guy calls a guy's all in, JT v 99
in the end, 99 is a slight favourite, and JT should lose just a little more than half the time.
it doesn't matter who wins how, it was all in preflop and at that time, it's almost 50-50.

flop came AKQ, JT getting the nut straight, turn came 9, river came Q, giving the other guy 9's full.

bad beat? not really, phil hellmuths puts it " an ugly way to lose, but not a bad beat, he was a slight underdog preflop so it doesn't matter HOW he lost"

now this differs quite alot if u actually "PLAY" the hand and ended up all in.

if ur holding the nuts, but disguise ur strength and make the other person move all in who thinks they have the best hand. then a bad beat could occur.

u have to best hand, with over 95% to win, the other person thought he had the best hand so he moved all in, but turns out he was beat and now has only 2 outs with the river card to come, and it hits, then it's a bad beat.

because u played your hand the best possible (best one could hope to play with the strongest hand on the board), if you lose, by that 2-3 outer, then it's a bad beat.

it's hard to explain what i'm saying. but bad beat involves some sort of play.
if u played recklessly but turned out u had the best hand and lost, it shouldn't count.
only when u played the hand the best way possible and the other guy had only few outs and lose is ita bad beat..

[dovla]

really hard question.. what is actually a bad beat?

my answer is that bad beat is when you lose a hand where you're a big favourite and it depends of the situation how this hand is played.

you can't consider a bad beat if you moved allin preflop with 77 for example vs AK (like that beat happened in our freeroll sunday before) and flop is 7102 then turn come J and river Q... because you moved preflop with yours 52% vs 48% chances.. it would be a bad beat only if your allin is called on flop where you have 95% of winning.

preflop bad beats for me are only when lower pocket pair wins against higher (2 outers), and losses like AK vs A8 (3 outers) or pocket pair against two lower cards

[123Law]

preflop bad beats for me are only when lower pocket pair wins against higher

I have to agree with that. This is the most common bad beat for me.

Last Sunday's freeroll:

Me: QQ in BB (2 limpers, so I bet 4x)
One guy raises by doubling that.
I re-raise a good amount,
he goes all-in.
I call.
We show (Me: QQ, him: 55)

Flop: T 7 2 rainbow
Turn: K
River: 5

that is my definition of bad beat.

[dovla]

this is really bad beat - because moving preflop with lower pocket pair gives you only two outs to win that hand (and 4-card flushes and str8s - i lost like that million times, too)

by the odds, i think the only hands that have lower chances to win than lower pp are unsuited undercards vs bigger pocket pair (for ex. 59 off against 10 10) but who the hell is moving with that?!

[sunnypoker]

Originally Posted by 123Law

Me: QQ in BB (2 limpers, so I bet 4x)
One guy raises by doubling that.
I re-raise a good amount,
he goes all-in.
I call.
We show (Me: QQ, him: 55)

Flop: T 7 2 rainbow
Turn: K
River: 5

that is my definition of bad beat.

um, no really, 1 in 5 times he WOULD win,
and it was him who pushed, u being the caller. so that makes things abit different.